tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post7530639309747582958..comments2023-08-20T07:41:01.958-07:00Comments on The Uncanny Investigator: Witch Museum Opens in Salem...There's Just One Problem...Adam D. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00152982828145437481noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-90515460974902165172010-07-17T10:31:25.111-07:002010-07-17T10:31:25.111-07:00Pre-Christian religious beliefs in Europe often ca...Pre-Christian religious beliefs in Europe often came to be seen as diabolical by the Christian Church. Those who practiced the 'old ways' were labelled as Satan worshipers or witches. Many of these pagan beliefs continued to be passed on despite this and the modern Wiccan religion identifies itself as belonging to these ancient pre-Christian European traditions. It is in this sense that there were and are 'witches' (i.e. pagans). In other words there were and are people who were labelled as witches by certain Christian authorities because their beliefs did not conform to the ideal of Christianity as it was understood at a particular time in history. The dominant Church's representation of pagans was that they were witches.Shamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02425340105986634717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-61877982107105656202010-04-20T12:12:01.171-07:002010-04-20T12:12:01.171-07:00Outside of the Western cultures you traced, witchc...Outside of the Western cultures you traced, witchcraft has historically been a very real part of many cultures. What I mean to say is that people in these cultures very much believed in witchcraft and used the concept as an integral part of ordering their world, and there were individuals attached to these cultures who very much believed themselves to be witches (or whatever local term you want to use). Interestingly enough, I can't think of a single instance where such individuals were/are socially acceptable; they were/are feared pariah, as witchcraft was/is seen as selfish and dangerous threat to the community. <br><br>However, it seems that you are arguing against a historical stream of Euro-American witchcraft in which modern practicioners can rightly say they are immersed. If that is the extent of your claim, then you know the history in question better than me. <br><br>For my own studies I read a FASCINATING work on the Salem witch trials called In the Devil's Snare. The author tries to tie the trials to the horrific Indian raids and marauding happening further north of Salem on the Maine frontier. She traces the accusers back to the frontier as those who suffered tremendous and terrible shock because of what they witnessed/endured. Interestingly, many of the accused also had ties to the Maine frontier, mainly as those who could have been expected to protect the settlers, but failed to do so. This is a very rough synopsis, but it was a very good read. I think I still have it if you want to borrow it sometime.JGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00872074591866669100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-27073307829154943452010-04-20T12:18:20.297-07:002010-04-20T12:18:20.297-07:00But the Which Wich is for real, right?One of my fa...But the <a href="http://www.whichwich.com/" rel="nofollow">Which Wich</a> is for real, right?<br><br>One of my favorite C.S. Lewis books, <b>That Hideous Strength</b>, takes an interesting stab at the Druidic side of this. One of the characters in the book is Merlin (yes, THE Merlin) who, in this book, turns out to be a <i>Christian Druid</i>. They explain this as being possible through a very Dispensationalist like argument, ultimately saying, "well, [his Druidic magic] never really was alright" In the end, of course, it's fiction, but it's a fun read. (the book itself is fantastic and one of my favorites of all time)Kellyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09463805732931774611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-24076112041525175642010-04-20T12:26:40.463-07:002010-04-20T12:26:40.463-07:00I was going to ask you to respond to the several m...I was going to ask you to respond to the several mentions of "witchcraft" and the one Witch of Endor in the Bible, for me. I ask, not to argue anything you've written, only to help explain that bit to me in conjuction with what you're sayign.<br>Though it feels like the last reader might be touching on this.<br><br>I can only assume it is one of those lost-in-translation things where perhaps the current understanding of that word was a bit different to the people it was written for, in the original language it was written.<br><br>Thanks, Adam. I hope my query makes sense.<br>-KWAKrystal Wight Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16310610382345882173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-21171927717505012072010-04-20T12:28:59.121-07:002010-04-20T12:28:59.121-07:00Good question about the Witch of Endor that we rea...Good question about the Witch of Endor that we read about in the Old Testament. <br><br>The witch was as surprised as anyone that the ghost of Samuel appeared before her and Saul. We don't have evidence of any real witchcraft, but fortune telling and such has long been a tradition. However, these individuals don't really form a culture.Adam D Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00152982828145437481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-72014046814313263282010-04-20T12:34:30.448-07:002010-04-20T12:34:30.448-07:00Oh yes, Kelly reminds me of 2 other lesser points ...Oh yes, Kelly reminds me of 2 other lesser points I wanted to mention. <br>Adam, your first silly bit of dialogue up there reminded me of a little word game my Grammy Wight played with me as a tiny girl (around the time my baby brother was born), called "Which Witch is Which." Hadn't thought of that in a while; so thanks.<br><br>And, Merlin, (though I don't believe ever proved to be an actual person), would have been my one example of someone seemingly accpeted for his sourcery...in responce to JG up there.Krystal Wight Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16310610382345882173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-27365464472622545022010-04-20T12:38:02.774-07:002010-04-20T12:38:02.774-07:00Merlin was not a real person. He doesn't show...Merlin was not a real person. He doesn't show up in the oldest legends, and a legend about him does not constitute a culture of witches being suppressed. <br><br>Some countries have witches in their history...but they are hard to find. It often turns out that the situation has been exaggerated and we really have a few people claiming to read fortunes or talk to animals. I'm not sure if I'm familiar with any social group/movement of witches that is not a group of frauds or the object of persecution. It seems like it's usually individuals trying to link themselves to a dubious heritage of witchcraft.Adam D Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00152982828145437481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-12323990483040202932010-04-20T12:39:48.741-07:002010-04-20T12:39:48.741-07:00Ok, so as I suspetced the "witchcraft" i...Ok, so as I suspetced the "witchcraft" in the Bible is just supposed to refer to pagan 'spiritual' stuff like fortune-telling.<br>And I had always been taught the Witch of Endor wasn't the one with any real power there. But I guess she being called a witch at the time still referred to what's going on now, with people falsely praciticing any sortof actual witchcraft?Krystal Wight Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16310610382345882173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-61845834676493455112010-04-20T12:41:21.094-07:002010-04-20T12:41:21.094-07:00I don't know why she's called a witch - sh...I don't know why she's called a witch - she may have actually believed herself to be one, I don't know.<br><br>What is relevant to the article is that she doesn't represent a culture of witches that any current "witch" could associate themself with.Adam D Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00152982828145437481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-70953500982260253162010-04-20T12:57:21.114-07:002010-04-20T12:57:21.114-07:00Of course, when we see a word like "witch&quo...Of course, when we see a word like "witch" in the bible, it is a case of the best modern word to bring across to the English reader the meaning of the original word used. That doesn't mean that the word is perfect. <br><br>To presume that a witch mentioned in the bible is the same kind of witch that we see in Western culture is probably a mistake. It might be better to compare a 'biblical' witch to a shaman or a person involved in sorcery and divination.<br><br>Of course, for a Christian, there's absolutely no reason from scripture to believe that things like magic and sorcery are fake at all. We simply relegate that to the realm of demonic power, which is real and evil. As such, there's no reason we have to assume that there can not be modern day (or historical) witches with real power. Such people would simply be in communion with dark and subversive powers. A Christian is not to engage in such things.Kellyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09463805732931774611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-4032462337361721752010-04-21T11:41:03.563-07:002010-04-21T11:41:03.563-07:00Thanks, Kelly, those were pretty much the same not...Thanks, Kelly, those were pretty much the same notions I was trying to confirm, but I failed to express that nearly so eloquently :} Well put.Krystal Wight Armstronghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16310610382345882173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-63695950086751414672010-04-21T12:10:21.183-07:002010-04-21T12:10:21.183-07:00Indeed, we could wrap up those witches we hear abo...Indeed, we could wrap up those witches we hear about into a group of Devil worshipers. However, we would still lack a culture of these types of people. All we have are individuals who are not part of a social movement - maybe. Most likely, we have frauds and hearsay. I've never seen evidence of successful demonic mysticism.Adam D Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00152982828145437481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1657869025506218446.post-60881659705991086342010-04-22T20:00:21.029-07:002010-04-22T20:00:21.029-07:00It's already been addressed, but specifics hel...It's already been addressed, but specifics help me out:<br><br><br>1 Samuel 15:23 (KJV) "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." <br><br>Also translated as:<br><br>1 Samuel 15:23 (NAS) "For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry..." <br><br>Churches often define witchcraft as: Wanting to be a spiritual "mover and shaker" without submitting to God. Witchcraft is rebellion coupled with a desire to "stay in the game", to be a spiritual player.<br><br>Therefore, I believe that witches actually exist (they just aren't the people who actually claim to be witches). But historically speaking our ancestors have really botched it up with all these ridiculous witch hunts.The Andi Meisterhttp://anakalianwhims.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com